How Far Could $68B Go in Securing Our Energy Independence? Pretty Damn Far.

bigcloud

I have been interested and involved in wind, hydro and solar power for years
and I am a nobody on this planet.
THIS INFORMATION IS SO FANTASTIC!!!!
WHY IS THIS NOT ON THE FRONT PAGE OF EVERY NEWSPAPER AND EVERY COMPUTER EVERY FREAKIN DAY OF THE YEAR UNTIL SOMETHING IS DONE????
there are people in power that could
AT LEAST do this. if this small thing cannot be accomplished how can anyone expect anything meaningful and or useful from the retarded peoples that run this circus(USA) they are only interested in
the $$$$cha-ching$$$$

this web site in in serious need of a FORWARD TO A FRIEND BUTTON a BIG one!

I have spoken so if anything happens to me you know they came and took me out.
they are gonna get you too.
bigcloud

bigcloud

THIS INFORMATION IS SO FANTASTIC!!!!
WHY IS THIS NOT ON THE FRONT PAGE OF EVERY NEWSPAPER AND EVERY COMPUTER EVERY FREAKIN DAY OF THE YEAR UNTIL SOMETHING IS DONE????
there are people in power that could
AT LEAST do this with their $$multi-billions$$

Bob Smith

The evil unleashed by today’s Republican party is truly staggering. And were it not for the weak, wimpy, complicit Democratic leadership (Pelosi, Reid, etc.), we’d be in the midst of war crimes trials, our troops would be home, and we’d be turning our attention to our energy needs, as described in this excellent article. Our worthless politicians deserve our complete contempt. Damn them all.

Levy

Security isn’t the only reason you can’t build a 92 x 92 mile solar panel in the desert. You can’t get electric energy from Nevada to New York without storage cells. And if you are transporting storage cells across the country constantly all that work will be for nothing.

It’s a great idea, and something I’ve pondered myself, and it should be seriously looked at by smarter people than me.

Doomsdayrock

Seems to me like its more important to kill women and children Than to try to save the planet. Life is already short for people.The life of one child is more important than money.Soldiers can kill each other if thats what they like.
What an awful world we live in all this money and people going without,makes me sick.Look where our education has brought us……. Shame on us all.

Irreverant Musings

Great article.

Oh, to those who commented before me… ALL CAPS doesn’t reflect well on your maturity or intelligence.

tom

Maybe we could use some of those farms we subsidize NOT to farm and cover them with Wind and Solar generators…or would that be too logical??

[...] How Far Could $68B Go in Securing Our Energy Independence? Pretty Damn Far. [...]

wheazel

This is a great concept. Practical application limits its viability. Generating electricity in Nevada is fine for Nevada, but it is difficult to transport that generated power to an area like the northeast, or California because of energy loss over distance. The only way to make it work would be to follow a power distribution grid, similar to what we already have, with regional plants supplying regional power. Solar generated power anywhere beyond a desert is terribly inefficient these days, so that money would actually be better spent in the short term developing new solar collection technologies that boost capacity beyond the minimal conversion rates we have now. But beyond that, you run into the NIMBY syndrome, where everyone is all for alternative energy, until they realize that 90 acres of prime shopping mall space would be sacrificed for the greater good. Just look at the wind generator fight in Nantucket sound.

A better choice would be to develop minimal distributed power generation networks–solar on every Wal-Mart roof–now that would be giving back to the community.

Kilgore Trout

This country uses approx. 2 terawatts of power per year. It would be feasible to place
solar plants throughout the southwest to power that area. It would also be possble to place solar and especially wind generating plants throughout the midwest to power that area. As for the coastlines, definitely more wind power.

Kurt

Actually wheazel, electricity transmission over long distance is pretty cheap and done all the time. New York City buys a lot of electricity from Canada.

Check out http://www.geni.org/globalenergy/library/technical-articles/transmission/cigre/present-limits-of-very-long-distance-transmission-systems/index.shtml

James

Using solar energy would definitively advance some of our problems. However, this adspace makes an assumption about the cost of the war. The assumption is that it isn’t necessary.

While I wouldn’t dare to pretend there aren’t problems with the way we have conducted ourselves in this crisis, I would certainly be willing to hear any well thought reasons we shouldn’t be at war. But, the fact of the matter is that we must at times spend money to defend ourselves. If we don’t then the amount of “cheap energy” we have will not matter at all.

I, of course, realize that there will be message posts condemning me for being a conservative or war monger or whatever ad hominem attack that can be directed towards those who dare to disagree. But, I ask those of you who would automatically censure defense spending to think about what you would do if put into the position to make these decisions for an entire nation without deluding yourself to the scope and responsibility of such a task.

David LaFerney

James,

You are correct. We do have to defend ourselves sometimes, and remain prepared all the time. But, if we were to achieve energy independence then our foreign policy would no longer be distorted by our addiction to oil. The current priorities are heavily influenced by the fact that a lot of people make a lot of money from the current state of things. It’s going to be hard to change, but the first step is for We the People to want to change.

John N.

Im an engineering student at MIT, and the idea of placing solar panels atop every wal-mart sounds very tantalizing to me. I am going to see what i can do to get that idea rolling. there is already a wal-mart in every nook of this country, why not use that space wisely.

Darwin

One seems to forget that they “drive” everywhere, just give up your personal vehicle and that will save heaps. Have you given thought to the countries’ info structure, which is based on agriculture and the oil industry. What will you do with all the “oil workers” and those industries dependent upon them?
Oh, by the by global warming is a fact, but the earth is in it’s warming cycle, not to worry everything will return to what you call normal.

brian

I don’t think it’s a dumb idea to put it all in one place. Look at the Savannah River Site in South Carolina. It’s a 310 square mile nuclear facility that has it’s own zip code, police department, fire department, army, etc. I think grouping it all together makes security easier. =)

Frank

If you guys are going to whine, look up the contact info for your congressman and senator. They are debating an energy bill. Think Renewable Portfolio Standard and increased gas mileage for cars. It’s not as good as an oil tax to pay for this war, but it’s a start.

inel

Thanks for the link to Green Wombat’s article. (I had missed that one, but always enjoy Green Wombat.)

It is good to think outside the box, and I applaud you for doing that in this post. Even though there are practical limitations (such as equipment shortages and the need to redesign distribution infrastructures), it is worth throwing ideas out there without restrictions to shake-up people’s assumptions about what can and cannot be done with alternative energy.

My preference tends more towards local microgeneration of a basket of alternative energies, rather than relying on one source and technology exclusively. However, I can see that solar-sourced power is a no-brainer in California, Florida, Texas, Greece, Spain and Italy … and so on. Even in London, there is plenty of sunshine to go around, if only we could figure out how to catch it, convert it, and deliver it efficiently to each place at the time we’d like to use it!

I have one link for John N. about Wal-Mart, which shows that the company is at least responsive to the need for renewables, and you can search inside walmartstores.com for up-to-date info on their solar, wind (and hydro?) projects.

The message coming across loud and clear from European businesses is that they do care what consumers think about them, and we do need to demand they stay ahead of the climate curve. So, customers need to demand that Wal-Mart and other companies in America tread as lightly on our planet as possible, and achieve their smaller carbon footprints as quickly as possible. As consumers, we can do that through purchasing less, and choosing American-made products. As share-holders or concerned individuals, we can write to companies and request information on their operations, products and services as far as sustainability and emissions are concerned.

wheazel

rooftop commercial solar–I smell business tax credits, government incentives can go a long way if it increases a business’ bottom line, they’re flat, wide-open, and unless your walmart is smack dab in the middle of high-rise heaven, no one ever sees what’s up there anyway. don’t let the energy companies get wind of that one tho–it might cut into their subsidized business plans.

[...] of what I outlined (spending the money the US spent on Iraq on solving energy problems). Link: How Far could 68B go in securing our energy independence? Over here in the UK I think there is much more promise in wind energy rather than solar but for a [...]

Tochol

Dear Dan Hahn:

Great post. One question. What about tranmission line losses? Isn’t most of the power generated lost during transmission to the end users?

Is it possible to have a wider disbursement plan that had smaller production of power but better transmission?

Granted the massive plants would be great at producing huge amounts of power and easier to fund and build.

But I think it would also be useful to encourage smaller systems that are not as optimum in power production but usefully scattered around closer to end users.

Just a thought.

Dick

Use less.

Dan Hahn

Thank you all for your interest in this post. It’s been a pleasure to read many of your reactions and ideas. Tochol, I’m not an expert on long distance power line losses. Though for now, I’d refer you to Kurt’s link above. Additionally, I do know there has been some talk of employing more efficient solar fed capacitors in these plants which would have the ability to store and distribute power more effectively.

Inel, you make some excellent points. You all have a voice in this matter. It’s up to all of you to go ahead and use it. Write your legislators. Show up at a town hall meeting or two and let them know these issues on your mind and you expect them to deliver real solutions to them.

As for Wal-Mart and any other big box store, I’m pretty sure you’ll see many of them employing larger scale solar systems in the coming decade. It simply would be foolish for them not to. In the long run they’ll be locking in a lower set energy price and a system that large will pay for itself in about 6-7 years. However, since many Wal-Marts are open 24/7, and Wal-Mart is not in the business of selling power, there isn’t going to be much left over energy that will be fed back into our electrical grid.

The real answer to getting more solar up on roofs lies with feed-in tariffs. Cloudy Germany has taken the lead in this area and their country has the most solar installed per capita in the world.

B. Burland

The New World Order calls for extermination of 80% of the world’s population, they are not interested in any kind of energy conservation.

Irfan

I am really confused to understand the way American public think about different issues. America donates more money than any other nation to help poor around the world while at the same time America spends 1000 times more on starting and continuing wars around the world. Its a paradox that I am just unable to understand.

I think what American needs is a new political party that will let democrats and republicans know that it is not their inherent right to switch the political power every four to eight years.

wheazel

and what does that have to do with solar power?

[...] This article provides a convincing argument to what I have been thinking all along; if we spent the money that we’re currently pouring into the war into alternative energy sources, we could pretty much wash our hands of most of the screwballs who control our country’s lifeline and let them be free to kill each other.  (Oversimplification?  Perhaps – but the article referenced above is pretty darn convincing, and our military would be a lot better off right now).  Additionally, we would be doing the environment a huge favor by not burning so much coal and generating so much nuclear waste to generate electricity. [...]

Realitybytes

The powers that be (big oil) won’t let this happen. Your talking about taking the junky into rehab, and the dealer won’t let that happen. The government has different priorities for it’s money. Of course it makes sense. Of course it’s possible. Will the politicians allow it? Of course not.

Realitybytes

Oh. Storage is NOT a problem. I’m not an expert, but in principal I can think of several cheap low tech solutions for extra energy storage during peak times. For instance, during peak energy times store extra energy by pumping water to an uphill reservoir, to be later used as hyrdoelectric power. Or how about huge weights that are lifted up, and then dropped pulling cables that spin generators. Batteries… huge flywheels… Hell I’m NOT an expert, and without trying I can think of a dozen ways to make it work. I’m tired of hearing that storage is a problem.

Diane at Carbon Tiptoes

I’m surprised energy companies haven’t cottoned on to the fact that their consumers all could have energy producing panels put on their properties. In exchange for lower priced energy I’m sure most of us would jump at the chance of becoming part of the national power system!

Andrew Weiszmann

Thank you for showing us what is possible with solar. I have visited both Solar 1 and 2 and always wonderd why cant we build more. The answer was well it only delivers useful power about 6 hours a day.

Will

Good idea, but with Solar power, I wonder “what about the albedo effect…?” You’re still absorbing a lot of energy from the sun that could be reflected back out to space…

Denny

The only problem is that we don’t have all that money. It is all borrowed from anyone who will lend it to us. All we have is a big no principal loan!

ColdWeatherRevolution

Just a thought…
…an easy way to turn 68 Billion into hundreds of Billions in development. There is no reason for the government to completely pay for all of the development costs of these facilities. in the same way that the government does not actauly outright buy all of americas oil and gas, they just HEAVILY subsidize the industry. what if the government told the power providers that they would give MASSIVE LONG TERM tax credits to renewable energy production. This would make an already “almost competetive” alternative into the obvious solution. as a result the providers could develop the renewable facilities in each area that are preferable to that geographic region (Tidal, Solar, Geothermal, Wind, etc.)

…just a thought

ryan

well the answer is internet democracy. some countries already have an internet party that bases its decisions on its members vote. Wiki has buildt a very good model for internet democracy using the wisdom of crowds. First we get political power, become participants, and run this mother.

Andreas

Here is more information on efficient electricity transmission over long distance by HVDC:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC
http://www.trec-uk.org.uk/elec_eng/grid.htm
http://search.abb.com/library/ABBLibrary.asp?DocumentID=1JNL100100-972&LanguageCode=en&DocumentPartID=&Action=Launch

Olivier

Thanks a lot for this article.

Olivier

[...] a follow up to the information in the graph, here’s some more information…slightly more [...]

james

I quite agree that we need a national renewable energy grid. We also all need to reform our lifestyles. Just by changing our patterns of consumption, we can all reduce our energy use by at least 1/4, if not more, and maintain or improve our standard of living.

Read how one family is doing it, including links to the most cost-effective options for fluorescent bulbs, the best high-psi, low-flow showerheads, high-efficiency appliances and more at

LIVING GREEN, LIVING WELL

[...] of what I outlined (spending the money the US spent on Iraq on solving energy problems). Link: How Far could 68B go in securing our energy independence? Over here in the UK I think there is much more promise in wind energy rather than solar but for a [...]

bob!! xx

hii! use more of the solar panels!!

gosolar

http://www.gizmag.com/researchers-developing-solar-technology-that-works-at-night/8574/

Here is a solar technology that collects energy even at night from the infrared energy radiated back from the earth at night, has 80% efficiency and costs as much as a cheap carpet to print. Also has an astonishingly high frequency current which should be ideal for any long distance transmission I think….

gosolar

Its not the only night capable collector there are also solar towers that can generate 24 hours a day from continued updraft of hot air from the already heated earth, turning turbines. Also another system with molten salt that is heated throughout the day by giant mirrors and can also continue to provide heat at night to power steam turbines. Both such stations already exist.

J. Altman

I’m as appalled by the cost of the Iraq war as anyone, but you exaggerate the impact of the war on the national debt. The debt was already around $4 trillion when the war started.

Stephon

I for one am appalled at how much (or how little to be more precise) solar technology has advanced. I tell this one phrase to every intelligent person I converse with and I hope you will repeat it; THE SUN IS OUR PLANET’S SOLE SOURCE OF ENERGY. Bar none. Period. Without the sun this planet would not exist to begin with. So why not invest in harnessing this awesome, virtually limitless supply of energy. Current PV technology has terrible efficiency levels, but that’s not because technology has peaked. I would personally say that our biggest priority would be to research this part of energy production even further to bring PV down to a reasonable cost/efficiency relationship.

kayla stutler

i need help for answers

[...] Incentives Reviewed! »« Solar Powered Cars: Are they Cost Effective Yet? How Far Could $68B Go in Securing Our Energy Independence? Pretty Damn Far. @ Solar Power Rocks! Pingback on October 23rd, [...]

[...] Well, that amount of money could’ve built solar thermal plants here that would have provided energy for 2/3rds of our nation’s energy demand. [...]

[...] Well, that amount of money could’ve built solar thermal plants here that would have provided energy for 2/3rds of our nation’s energy demand. [...]

Anas

That’s a very good article. I just stumbled upon this article because I’m researching everything about Solar so that I can start shipping Solar water heaters, Solar PV and other items to Iraq to sell it there and have the Iraqi people enjoy more electricity because they only get about 4 hours of electricity a day from the national grid and the rest is from generators that adds to the pollution and sound noise in the neighborhoods. The electricity situation in Iraq is horrible, I know because I’ve been working in Iraq for the past 4 years as a contractor with the Army and although the Army has some micro funds that do support the Solar initiatives, it’s minuscule compared to the general use for the population because it’s only deployed at already safe areas and smaller scale. It’s amazing how old is this article yet getting so much buzz…thank you.

Dan Hahn

Thanks for the compliment Anas! Good luck with the rest of your research and your extended efforts to power up Iraq. Keep us posted and be safe!

Cheers,

- Dan

[...] That is a MASSIVE amount of electricity. For example, just see how far using $68B to develop solar thermal plants would go to securing our energy independence. [...]

[...] That $2,000,000,000,000? Well, that amount of money could’ve built solar thermal plants here that would have provided energy for 2/3rds of our nation’s energy demand. [...]